Bus rant
 

I just felt like ranting about buses for a while. I thought I would put it in the Public section in the hope that a competant person with authority (if there is a competant one) may read it and do something.

1) Irish. Why do the "timetables" have all the main stops in Irish and not in English? Then it has the "Expected journey times" which normally have two or three stop in English so you can work out the bus goes to those three places and nothing more. (Note: I needed Irish to get into University so I am relatively competant in it.)

2) Out of service busses. Currently I am staying in Ballsbridge and work in Blackrock. Everyday at the same time I see 4 "out of service" EMPTY buses. Meanwhile the crowd at the stop grows and grows. The 'every 15 minute' 7 comes 45 minutes after the last one and is instantly full. Meanwhile "Out of Service" buses have probably gone to Donnybrook or town. Excellent use of resources DB.

3) Smoking. How come busses have been non-smoking for over 10 years and it is illegal to smoke where people work in this country yet bus drivers are aloud smoke on buses? Atleast they seem to be because too frequently I see this.

The dropping of strict timetables for "every 15 mins" on some routes seems to have been used as an excuse to throw the timetable out the window and run the bus whenever they feel like it. I remember some years ago a route which was supposed to run every ten minutes ended up with three busses leaving in procession every half hour, allegedly because the drivers were afraid to go into an area on their own.

In other countries when busses are every X minutes, it will be printed on the timetable as "every hour a 7, 19, 31, 43 and 55 minutes past the hour from 7:00 to 19:00" (for example). And the timetable at a bus stop will tell you the time the bus should reach that stop, not when it left the terminus.

It's not all BAC's fault, however. The route timings were designed at the congestion levels the city faced ten years ago. A couple of hundred extra busses are needed just to maintain those timings, and so far the government have not been willing to increase the fleet just to maintain service levels of a decade ago.

I'm not sure that this is the thread to go into it, but what's really needed is to tear up the old route map and start again.

I would completely agree with you on the timetable issue. They're equally useless if read in either Irish or English.

The problem is that the placenames in Irish are often completely unrecognisable if you only know the name in English. They sometimes have absolutely no resemblence to their English version at all.

Personally, as an Irish person, I regard this kind of tokenism and lipservice to the Irish language highly insulting. If CIE were going to spend money on it why not look at improving bus and rail services in the Gaeltacht areas?

We have areas of northwest donegal who are facing complete loss of their own local service, Swilly Bus, due to a lack of state funding. Poor services into West Kerry, poor services in parts of rural Galway, Mayo etc

Please put the damn bus timetables in Dublin, Cork etc up in English... and start spending some money on the Gaeltacht areas in a meaningful way!

The other incrediably stupid thing is the usage of Irish-only signage in Dublin and Cork city centres. "Lana Bus" for example...

Why not
LANA
BUS
LANE

works either way.

I know it's nice to keep Irish going for cultural heritiage reasons but this kind of nonsense just irritates, annoys and confuses people. It's the same sort of linguistic fashism that has driven the language into the ground over the years.

Lets see some positive approaches ... e.g TG4, RnaG.. a more fun approach to teaching Irish at school.. etc etc Not more pointless lipservice!


----

Back to the timetables themselves.

Is there any way that Dublin Bus could produce versions for specific stops..

e.g. the stops in ballsbridge should display the approx. time for Ballsbridge arrivals, not give you the time that the bus leaves Bray Station, then suggest that you add 20min and another 20min then multiply by the square root of the distance between the earth and the moon and round up to the nearest 30 mins.

They're simply useless!

Even:
07:00 - 09:30 --- Every 15 mins
09:30 - 12:30 ---- Every 30 mins
12:30 - 14:40 ---- Every 20 mins

would be more useful!

That is exactly it. It is just lipservice and at the expense of the commuter. If I want to get a bus to a new destination, I shouldn't have to find the Irish place name to know if a bus goes there. Culturally, it is nice to use Irish. Practically (in Dublin) it is useless.

No it isn't

I don't mind it at all, and I was born in the UK and had to learn it.


One other thing to consider is the application of the recent legislation on Irish.

It is in fact cheaper to call everything in Irish, you only have to do it once. with the English Language you must do it in Irish and english.

The majority of people in Dublin would not know what the Irish placenames are The majority of immigrants would know what the Irish place names are. Tourists don't know what the Irish placenames are.

This is not a language matter, it is a practicallity matter. There is no practical reason for not having English on the Bus stops. All it shows is how DB are incapable of grasping the simplest of customer service issues, making sure the customer is informed.

RE: out of service
 

A lot of the out of service buses seen during evening peak hours are heading into the city centre or pre-chosen intermediate stop to go on route because half of the buses are caught up in a jam somewhere. They go in "Special" to get into the city centre or as near as to get the people back out. That story about the buses bunching for safety up is true believe it or not but there was a time when they would stop miles from anywhere, ie the last garda station out and not go any further.

I was looking at the journey times thing on the revolves the other day and couldnt believe it that they have given the 39 80 min to get into town. That is the average time, bears no relaity to conditions on the gound esp at rush hour but is still 25 mins more than 10 years ago. Mad.

Hmmm, there is some logic to that. None the less I think it should be scrapped. I would rather see no buses than 4 out of service ones. It's like nightlinks running back to town empty (do they still do this?). Buses intentionally running empty is a loss of revenue, waste of petrol, waste of public transport and extemely irritating. If the 46a (for example) is having difficulty making journey times, they should change it so it doesn't stop every 12 feet, if they halved the 46a stops it would speed up the journey and not make that big a difference to most people. Stops Loretto at the Green and the CUS is one example. 3 stops along RTE is another. 4/5 stops around Stillorgan shopping centre. If a few of these were removed (Keep only the Stillorgan one at the S.C for example) the 46a would make much better time.

Hmmm, there is some logic to that.

That should be the new BAC motto!!

I've mentioned some of this before, but a radical overhaul of the bus network is clearly needed.

The chief things that annoy me are:

1. Buses having dedicated lanes except at the narrowest, most congested points. I recently got a bus from Swords Road, which made great time to the outskirts of town, but if I'd know in advance that I would be stuck in O'Connell St going nowhere for 15 mins, I'd have got off and walked.

2. Busses stopping every two minutes because stops are too close together.

3. Busses to outlying suburbs detouring through every little housing estate along the way.

4. Every stop adding five minutes to the journey because of a long line of people paying single journey fares.

5. Having to step out onto the road to board the bus because of out of service bus blocking the bus bay.

I will try to outline the broad ideas of how I would see an ideal bus system for Dublin working.

1. Remove all city centre termini, and make all routes cross-city.

2. Select a limited number of routes through the city centre and designate them as "super bus lanes" with the following features:

2.1. They would be relatively shory, extending perhaps 1km outside the city centre, but joining with a number of regular bus lanes.

2.2. Busses would always have priority over other traffic. If the road selected isn't wide enough for both, make that section busses only and divert cars away completly.

2.3. Bus stops would be approx 500m apart, and would have ticket machines and electronic displays showing the times for all busses calling at the stop. The ticket machines would also offer multi-mode tickets for changing to Luas or Train.

2.4. Busses would be prepaid only along the central sections to minimise wait times.

2.5. Drivers would not check tickets in central sections. Inspectors would rnadomly board busses in this section to catch fare evaders.

3. There would be a number of "hub" points at the intersections of these routes. This would be designed to make it as easy as possible to make connections.

4. There would be a single zone system, with fares based on the number of zones crossed. It should be possible to make as many changes as required to reach a destiantion on a single fare. This should be common with Luas and DART, though there could possibly be a "mode change" surcharge.

5. Having a limited number of routes through the city should considerably simplify the task of creating a single integrated public transport map for the city. Every bus stop should have an overall city map and a detailed map of the local area.

6. There should be substantial discounts on multi-journey and season tickets to encourage people to buy these tickets. Currently the incentive is very limited.

Perhaps this is too radical, but our current approach of minimal change is like trying to cure cancer with asprin. If i've missed anything, please add it to the list, or if any of my ideas are stupid, please set me straight.

I agree with LCP. One thing though, are bus stops not currently about 500m apart? I think they should be wider than that 750-1km apart. If that is too far for most, they can learn to walk a little more without a sit down. :D

If you can let me know why
elderly people and mothers with children should be forced to walk these extra distances I would be happy.

Some of the other suggestions bear examination but please remember the bus service is for everyone

As someone who spent many many years riding BAC the problem is not stops; on the busiest routes buses overtake each other anyway [ see 15,16,10,40 routes]

the primary slowdown for buses is other traffic : most of this is Joe Commuter.

There will be an interesting experiment soon when Templeogue Road goes one-way outbound with a contraflow bus lane [ see DCC traffic management strategy ]

Clearly it doesn't take much to make you happy. :D If you put the bus stops 1Km apart, you have to walk at very most 500m or .5km. Hardly a great distance. I will use Donnybrook as an example.

Donnybrook Church -> Half way along RTE -> Near the end of RTE -> Just passed RTE

One half of that road is RTE, it does NOT need a bus stop in the middle. The only places to cross that road are, whoa and behold, Donnybrook Chuch and end of RTE. The middle stop is not needed and does nothing other than slow down the bus. If you're fit enough to run across the N11, you're fit enough to walk ~500m. It is also worth noting that alot of the far side of the road is a School. I can think of many more examples of 'too many bus stops, too short a distance', if you would like more, let me know.

Never said it wasn't, let's be reasonable with the stopping though, removing a few stops that are a short walk from others would benefit many commuters and inconvinience people who would forget quickly after. Remeber when you used to be able to smoke in pubs.........

Try getting the 46A from town to Stillorgan in the mornings or evenings, as soon as it reaches full speed, it slows down for the next stop which is usually a paralising 200m from the last one. A 10 minute drive takes 40minutes, mainly bus lanes the whole way (except Donnybrook). Biggest delays are bus stops.

I have to disagree with the Irish/English language thing. As a Gaeilgeoir whose vernacular is English, I don't see why we can't have both. The Journey Time column is in English and the route summary is As Gaeilge. I don't think that's too bad do you?

The new ticket machines make me absolutely apopletic with rage. They are sooo slow. And the ticket comes out in a real awkward place. They've a smart-card reader in them but on the whole they're a colossal waste of money considering there'll be a smart card reader in the new card validators anyway.

As a person who isn't a huge fan of the Irish language, I have to disagree in the stongest possible terms.

The purpose of Public Transport Information signage is to inform prospective passengers. Not to make some ridiculous cultural "Look, we're not British" statements.

So, to read reports that some Dublin Bus displays are in Gaelic only makes perfect sense when you consider that DB are controlled by Gaelgoirs, lingustic fascists and impaired by archaic 1950s legislation. And excessively controlled by Central Govt as attested to in a number of areas, routes, fare structures, signage etc.

For example, how much Gaelic do private bus operators use? None? As little as they can get away with?

If this were the case I would be happy enough, however there are generally 2 or 3 stops on the journey time and all the major ones in Irish. Fine if you know all of Dublin in Irish (which I like many don't care to do) however a full English translation should be provided. Never mind the thousands like me who don't care to learn all of Dublin place names in Irish. As I said, what about immigrants and tourists, as someone said above "please remember the bus service is for everyone". Besides, you said yourself you are a Gaeilgeoir, most aren't :)

As Sean put it, the signage should be there to inform not to be pseudo-cultural. Personally I do not see the reason everything should be in Irish but I did not join Platform 11 for that reason, I joined to make Irish public transport more usable. For that to be the case signage should be understandable by the users. Most of these people do not have Irish as their first language, the signage should suit the majority.

Sean, check your PMs.

One of the good points about the Steam Powered TGX Ticket Machines is how they will eventually spell the end of the "Change Ticket" nonsense.

It is now taking so long to issue individual change tickets that the passenger has already walked off and the following one gets the golden document...
Bearing in mind that the Change Ticket has to be acccompanied by the relevant journey ticket for redemption then it wont be long before people begin to bang their shoes on the counter at 59 O Connell St.

Its like having Charles Dickens back amongst us trying to master a PC....:rolleyes:

I'm sure there's enough room on the timetables to write:

City Centre (An Lár)

or the like. Besides as a state company I suppose they should have to serve everybody by having both languages.

I'm glad someone else thinks the TGX150's aren't the bees knees, I would have hoped DB would have spotted that they're slow before fitting them to ~1000 unsuspecting buses. What else didn't they bother checking about them?

I'll miss the old wayfayer machines but still the print was impossible to read most of the time and it required a good tug to get the ticket out

The TGX150 is the only smartcard approved model available, like it hate it whatever

There is a requirement under the transport act to support Irish to be honest all it is a single line in a smaller font detailing the route

The classic point is some destinations don't have english names, Dún Laoghaire exists but most people will say Dunleary which in fact exists and is a different place

One possible source of the TGX`s pedestrian pace could well be the imposed interface between the New Wayfarer 3 software and the Old Mag Card Validator which Bus Atha Cliath are continuing to run parallell pending the introduction of it`s disposable smart(ish) card...added to this is the need for the TXX to trigger the cash vault at each Change Ticket operation when there is No cash to deposit.

It all adds up to significant delays on a per passsenger basis,which when added to the reduced width of the new Tri-Axle single doorway means delay heaped upon delay heaped upon delay....etc.

It appears that the company are well aware of the situation but the word is ...."Thats the way it is etc etc".

However the REAL issue is that we now have a new slower ticketing system superimposed upon the network which IS adding to an already significant Dwell-Time at Stops problem.

The only commonsense method of addressing this is to attend to the disappointingly low level of Pre-Paid ticket useage....45% at last count.

I would estimate that the Prepaid-Cash ratio would need to have been moved to 65%-35% at the time of TGX introduction simply to MAINTAIN the then current Dwell-Times.

The TGX is an excellent well proven Industry Standard design which offers great flexibility in its ability to offer new tickets etc...However by failing to grasp the basics of this new technology we risk losing yet more regular custom from our Public Bus Network.

Its a great pity but again and again it comes down to a native reluctance to dot the i`s and cross the t`s a reluctance which eventually sees us having to go back to the drawing board ..... :mad:

So in that case wouldn't it have made more sense to replace the Mag Card validator with a Smart Card Device which talks to the old Wayfarer 2 system. (After all, the MCV just needs the date, time, route, stage and a program-load facility from the Wayfarer system). That way we've a smart-card approved system, and nobody's really going to use a smart card at the driver position anyway once the system gets off the ground.

The cash vault was in fact triggered on the old system too for the Refund operation. I think the new one may trigger the vault, release the vault and only then print the ticket (slowly), which I'd say is actually the problem but I haven't observed this enough times to check.

British Rail managed to set up their really ancient APTIS rail ticketing system with smart card readers for the Oyster scheme which worked flawlessly and from what I've read with minimal outlay. (The system is currently being decomissioned, because it doesn't work well with a multiple-company-train ticket - which we don't have).

I think the new ticket machines is a giant step backwards, currently I prefer them to the old ones, novelty etc. Rather than these machines they should have began invensting in TVMs, starting in the CC and enforce that you needed a valid ticket before getting on the bus.

I saw this system in London (do they have the same machines on busses there for Oyster) and it seemed to work very smoothly. I'll save that for my next "Why I hate DB" rant. :D

Is that true? I've been saving my change tickets for several years now - must have nearly 5 euros worth, soon I'd have enough to justify a trip in to the office and now I find out I should have kept the actual tickets as well. Oh poo!

Just go in there and kick up a fuss. I've recouped some in the past and I don't remember having the journey tickets. I've managed not to get any for a couple of years so I don't know if that's still the case.

Maith an Fèar LCP..at least you took on board the essential lesson.
An Exact-Fare system SHOULD be just that except in the context of the Irish Republic when it becomes an Exact(ish) Fare system.
Many regular users of Dublin Bus services are now commenting on the rather noticeable boarding delays which have lengthened since the introduction of the TGX Ticket Machine.
The TGX being a Laser Print machine appears to have a very slight delay between Keystroke and Commencement of Printing (CoP).
There are also some individual foibles which when added together amount to substantial EXTRA delay for passengers.

Issuing a Child Ticket involves entering a different sub-menu.
Issuing a Shopper or Excess ticket involves another sub-menu from which Change Tickets Cannot be issued until returning to the main menu.
The change-ticket issuing itself is FAR to slow and is now leading to all manner of verbal disagreement over percieved driver reluctance to issue same.

The current TGX software setup is proving to be less efficient at Platform level though at Management Information level it is far more 21st century than the old WF2 system.

The real problem is with the serious Platform Cash vs Prepaid imbalance which simply exacerbates the individual passenger boarding delay.

The 45% penetration figure for pre-paid tickets on Bus Atha Cliath services is simply TOO low for the type of service which is bening demanded of it.

The TGX introduction programme really demanded a parallell marketing drive to dramatically increase Pre-Paid sales even if that meant using FMCG discount theories....ie..."Buy one Get one Free" et al.

I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath core services require a MINIMUM of 70% Prepaid useage simply to mark time before moving on to next stage which in our "Compromise" centred Republic would realistically be a Maximum of 85% Prepaid coverage.

I have little doubt but that we will see this figure attained BUT it will only be after we have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century Public Transport world.....The term "Making the Running" simply does not exist in our departmental halls..... :rolleyes:

It's no surprise that cash is still the dominant ticket type:

Two-trip tickets are no cheaper that their cash alternatives. At the very least they should be 10c cheaper per trip and more widely available.

Ninty-minute tickets can't be bought in less than packs of ten. Why can't you buy them singly?

Daily/weekly tickets are no use to people travelling short distances. I can travel from home to work (1.55 trip) and back five days a week and just match the price of a five day ticket. When I lived closer to work (1.35 trip) weekly tickets even with an extra trip or two, were still more expensive than paying cash.

Montly tickets aren't valid for a month, only for a calendar month. If weekly tickets are valid for 1 week, why isn't a monthly ticket valid for 4 weeks/31 days?

I don't disagree that pre-paid tickets are in the common good, but DB need to provide an incentive to make people change.

The reason prepay fares are so high is because in the abilty to raise cash fares is limited by the DoT so you increase what you can

First sensible move would be to round all fares to 10cents, this 5 cent thing on nearly all fares massively increases the number of change tickets

The new TGX system has a thermal (not laser!) printer, but that's no reason in itself why it's as slow as it is. From what I can see now the system has been a foolish cosmetic upgrade. Dublin Bus have never fully explained the situation behind the need for such change. If indeed they had to re-work the software to deal with the Mag Card Validator which according to them won't be around much longer, then it was a double-waste of taxpayer's money.

I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.

I wonder do the drivers go insane on the School buses at 3.30, when they've got to go into the sub menu 100 times!! They should just configure the 'soft menu' to have the same 10 buttons as the old WF2 system and be done with it. As such we're stuck with this abjectly crap and inefficient system for the sake of a few menus and a pretty customer display, the real thing now is that Dublin Bus need to be hassled to speed it up.

The price of prepaid tickets bothers me too (I should start another thread :D ) I also fall into that bracket of "ripped off by never having exact change and more expensive to buy prepaid tickets." That is a farce and a half if you ask me. DB should either start giving change again or start selling cheaper prepaid tickets. As it is I feel like I'm getting screwed either way.

they won't agree to giving out change again, this I believe was one of the safety points [ anti-theft ]

it really isn't fair to ask the drivers to give out change tickets. guys used to rob them and demand the whole cash dispenser on pain of a syringe - nobody should have to work in that situation :(

If they put ticket machines at the busiest stops and programmed them to be able to dispense tickets for future dates, they got get a lot of people to use prepaid tickets without having to change fares at all. The fact that the machines will give change should be enough of a hook on its own.

Most people get the bus from their home to the city in the morning and make the reverse trip in the evening. People could buy their ticket for the trip home and get their ticket for the next morning at the same time.

I do think there should be significant reductions for prepaid tickets, though. Unless you live a long way out weekly/monthly trips just aren't worth it. If we had a proper zone system and you could buy season tickets that covered just the central zones there would be a lot more take-up.

I know why they got rid of change on busses (thought they have it in many other countries).

Here is a hypothetical scenario:

Prepaid tickets cost too much so you use cash.
You have a huge pile of change for bus fare.
Sometimes you don't have sufficient change.
The bus gives you a change ticket, unless you are stuck with those things, notes, then you can't get the bus.*
You NEVER get your money back as the ticket office is only open when you work.

Wait.... That's real life for me.

TVMs at bus stops, cheaper prepaid tickets or change on buses. The current scenario is a rip off and a farce, the look on tourists' faces when they are told they don't get change.

*I thought notes were legal tender, obviously not as I can't use them on the bus.


EDIT: just saw LCP's post. He has the right idea.

Quote "I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.".

I understand the TGX was trialled on the 747/748 Airlink service which oddly enough still operates in the "OldenTimes" cash handling mode.....so the change ticket speed would never have been flagged.....Hmmmmmmm....:cool:

AFAIK, it was also tried on the 49 out of Ringsend Garage for several months before moving all buses out of Ringsend over to the new system. I'm not sure, but I think I heard they were trialling a smart card at the time too.

Yeah I think I heard of the smart card too. If I remember Martin Cullen may have been on the promo shoot trying it?