Anti Social Scumbags
 

3 guys broke windows on 6.14 (Mullingar) service this morning leaving us delayed overall by an hour more or less after being 'stranded' around Leixlip.

2 of them tried forcing a door open after pulling emergency switch. If they had managed to get it open at the time they would have been picking pieces of them off a train going in the opposite direction.

As it was they moved on to another carriage and according to twitter / newspaper reports they smashed windows and escaped on to the tracks with the Gardai in hot pursuit.

I got out of bed at 5.20 for this - things can only get better :(

Strange time of the day for scumbags to be about but I guess that train leaves Longford early enough for people on an all-night bender. There really is a need for some kind of staff presence on trains. What if this were an 8-car 29k unit - there is no staff at all on the back half of the train.

If you were injured or had a laptop smashed in an incident like this would Irish Rail be judged as having failed in their Duty of Care to customers?

The newspaper report below has more information.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...-30071544.html

Not sure about what any staff member could do in those circumstances without backup. They were high on drugs according to the report above.

Utterly bizarre incident - very scary for anyone onboard the train.

Indeed, it's definitely the earliest I've ever seen this sort of thing and like yourself JH I've been commuting a fair long while. Lets hope it's not the start of a new trend. ;)

I wouldn't expect any staff member to intervene given the risks to personal safety, but they certainly would have seen the situation developing and been able to alert the guards so they could have been waiting at a station. The problem is that with no Irish Rail presence on the train, situations like this tend to develop unobserved until they get out of hand.

I am really glad I wasn't on that train. Fair dues to Irish Rail for handling the disruption though - the Times is saying the train was only 35 minutes late which is not bad considering. It does sounds especially bizarre that the third guy completed his journey.

I see over on the Irish Independent website that the keyboard warriors were out in full force as to what they would and wouldnt have done to them lads if they had been on the train. :rolleyes:

In reality they would have done like everyone else - watch on in stunned silence as 2 of the morons tried to force open the door by kicking it and then repeatedly tried to smash the glass in the door with the emergency hammer. :eek:

It appears they were more 'successful' in another carriage where they broke through window or windows? Now, that must have been really upsetting / scary for passengers in that carriage. :(

Circumstances this morning were beyond crazy.

On train staff would have not intervened on safety grounds. When any of the emergency handles are pulled or the glass hammer is removed from its case the driver gets an alarm and the exact location on the train computer, driver has CCTV which will automatically pull up the camera nearest the incident.

Driver has a choice when the emergency handle is pulled, either to stop or to continue by pressing a button within 5 seconds. Clearly given the CCTV with broken windows stopping is the best option. If the door release was pulled the brakes apply, that's probably why the train stopped outside station. That said policy if gardai are needed is delay arrival at the platform until support has arrived.

Reality is the two scumbags this morning got bail this afternoon so are free to cause more trouble this evening

I just hope they are not using the other side of their return ticket on my way home this evening :eek:

;) ;)

I don't like making assumptions but odds are no ticket to start with

What odds a RPU offical appeared onboard and they tried to leg it?

Ah no they would prefer to be obnoxious to the ordinary passenger.:mad:

I dont think there was any RPU officials involved. Certainly were not on the scene when they were hacking away at the door anyway.

I doubt if it was anything to do with a ticket either.

Where did they board the train? Maynooth or Leixlip?

Train had CCTV so that can be determined easily.

The big question of the day is how the 2 that got arrested got bail. We are talking about 2 people who caused total chaos and whose actions could have very easily resulted in their own death or death of other passengers

Transport Act 1950, section 59(1) A person who trespasses on any of the railways of or worked by the Board is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.�

The whole of Part 12 of the Rail Safety Act 2005,
(a) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €100,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both,

Odds are we can throw in fare evasion as well and a whole stack of bye law offences.

No matter how many times we ask for a transport police we are wasting our time if the courts system will hand out bail. While there is an assumption of innocent till proven guilty, its hard to deny the charges given the arrest took place on the railway.

And thanks to yesterday's Supreme Court ruling (courtesy of the ECHR) the little sh*ts cannot even be be questioned until they have a solicitor present.

Why are human rights always the rights of someone other than law abiding and terrorised citizens?

If anyone witnessed the events, please contact the investigating gardaÃ*.Without wanting to get into a legal discussion, this isn't quite the decision. I understand it has implications for evidence gained before one gets legal advice. I don't think there is any entitlement to have the solicitor present for the duration of all questioning.

Shannonside (local radio) coverage:

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/two-charged-with-criminal-damage-after-train-incident/


http://www.shannonside.ie/news/early...ble-broke-out/


I feel for the ordinary passengers who were onboard the train.

That is correct, but any competent solicitor will advise their client not to answer questions or make any statement.

The full force of the law should be enforced without any discretion to these scumbags. Brings back the argument about having transport police within our network.

Getting bail is a joke, incredible.

Was it a 22k or 29k set?

There are only a few clearly defined reasons for bail being denied. These are that the defendant is likely to abscond while on bail, that the defendant is likely to interfere with witnesses or jurors, that the defendant was already on bail when the crime was committed or that a Garda superintendent believes that the defendant is like to commit another crime while on bail.

The last provision is used relatively rarely but if none of these conditions are met the defendant has to be offered bail. The fact is that prisons are already full of people who have been convicted of crimes. The reality is that to remand somebody who is technically innocent until proven guilty is going to require a convicted criminal to be let out on temporary release to make space.

The real issue is about how long it takes the wheels of justice to turn. It will probably be several months before this case comes up and even when it does, if the individuals have no previous record (I won't comment on the likelihood of this), they will probably get away with a short sentence or community service. As somebody who has been up for jury service a couple of times, from my observation the entire process is a bit of a joke and a tremendous waste of a hell of a lot of both peoples time and public money.

On the issue of transport police, I can't see that this service would have been assigned any protection as it would have been regarded as a low-risk service. I think it would be more reasonable to expect that there should be a ticket collector on most if not all services to keep an eye on things. This would be especially the case for outer commuter services given that most of the stations have no ticket barriers so the level of fare evasion is sufficient that a ticket collector would be self-financing. I would say personally that I move carriage three or four times a year where there is a particular level of anti-social behaviour going on and I would rather complete my journey in peace and quiet. It wouldn't really occur to me to ring anyone about it as I don't want to get involved and get beaten up or have my laptop smashed for my trouble and there would rarely be any staff on the train to back me up.

I was on the 17.20pm train from Heuston to Portlaoise on Friday evening when two windows were smashed in the carriage by scumbags throwing stones at Clondalkin. Certainly I would prefer to see Transport Police rather than those private security (Brinks) who have only the same powers of arrest as you or I on our transport system.

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

Early morning is not a time you would expect trouble

The advent of front/rear CCTV on many trains means the stone throwers can now be traced in many incidents. Legally there is no issue with a transport police as it would be just a gardai division like the traffic corp.

The windows are designed to take a pretty significant impact without collapsing, that is no doubt is why the pair on the Longford train didn't get far with the glass hammer.

If you know how to use the glass hammer you can take a window out in a single strike, if you don't you will probably break the hammer before you break the window. Just look at the graphic next to the hammer for the secret

Sorry, I didn't mean that Transport Police could stop the stone throwing (badly phrased), but they would stop anti social behavour on trains. ie the 16.40 fron Heuston to Waterford from time to time. As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.
Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.
The problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads.

Just a question, how are the private security Brinks allowed to operate. ?

They have the same powers as a private citizen. They are licensed as security guards by the private security authority. They cannot do a lot.

They have struck again reports of passengers assaulted on the 17:55 Heuston Newbridge service

We can expect a decisive response from Irish Rail in the near future. They will be printing up large stickers with a phone number to ring which will be manned from 09:30 to 16:30 Monday to Thursday.

Joking aside, in all seriousness, a swift response in terms of security on board a large percentage if not all trains is required for the next few days. Obviously these lads decided that since the last lot got bail anything goes so I won't be surprised to see a spate of incidents. This incident appears to be a lot more serious as it seems a passenger was actually assaulted.

According to Irish Rail's twitter feed, the driver (and I presume by extension nobody at Irish Rail) was aware until they were contacted by the Gardai. Unbelievable. Also, I would hardly call 18:30 or so out of hours for a rail company.

There is the somewhat unknown emergency number 01 8555454 staffed 24-7-365

Its basically connects you to the same person the driver gets if he pushes the emergency button

For the circumstances tonight its use is completely justified.

Protocol is
Dial if there is a risk to life
When answered state 'This is an emergency call'
Clearly and slowly give the details, if on a train the trains origin/departure time otherwise if at station/level crossing/bridge give the location and the reference number as shown
Give your name and number
Follow instructions given

In a railway emergency dial this number FIRST before 112 (I know its illogical but thats the protocol) the biggest risk in a railway incident is other trains still moving

James
why would they know when nobody including the person involved decided to alert the driver. There was enough passengers to do it and even if the two people were going through the train somebody could of used the toilet to alert him.

Safe to assume they have free travel, no way could they afford Irish Rails prices to travel around so much.

As for transport police airport and ports fund them fully from commercial revenue received. Needless to say transport operators here couldn't afford to.

According to the journal 3 have being arrested.

The point is that nobody alerted the driver because to do so is to draw attention to yourself and hence become a target. Also, why bother if all the driver can do is ring the guards. You may as well cut out the middleman.

The problem is that for several years now there have been some trains with no Irish Rail staff presence aside from the driver. On these trains, routine anti-social behaviour such as smoking, playing music, etc goes entirely unpunished and so escalates. It is this development of a threatening atmosphere that any staff presence on the train prevents. This is what has escalated into these two incidents.

Obviously a transport police is the ideal solution, but there is little point in having it as a Garda division as they staff will just get reassigned to more important and glamourous duties. But having any kind of presence is better than none - where this be private security or even just not having the expectation of NEVER seeing a ticket collector an a given service.

Don't buy not alerting him at all. Yes possibly draw attention however there is over 200 passengers on a train. Somebody could of easily pulled the hammer beside themselves and the driver would of had to come out and the CCTV would clearly show the people in the coach.

He could easily of slowed down the train so guards would meet its arrival and there is at least 200 passengers onboard which could easy detain the two suspects.

As for only driver onboard only a few weeks ago I was on a train which was supposed to have security but didn't and had a ticket checker and the driver was easily made away of problems onboard and nothing was done whatsoever.

This doing nothing approach is the problem.

I remember travelling to Galway and Westport a number of years ago and there was two of the rail security guys that you find on the Luas or in Connolly and Heuston stations on board each train. As expected, having these 2 big tough lads in stab-proof vests etc discourages any antisocial behaviour.

Anyone have any idea why this arrangement of having them on the trains stopped, and if it would be possible for Irish Rail to start putting them on trains again?

There seems to be a passenger education issue here which contributed to the issue this evening

1. Pulling any of the emergency handles or breaking the seal on any emergency equipment does not sound an alarm in the passenger cabin or in any way indicate they have been activated

2. With the exception of the emergency door release none of the emergency handles actually cause the train to stop. The driver has to press a button within 5 seconds to override the emergency stop

3. When any handle or seal is broken the driver display in the cab immediately shows the location and the nearest CCTV

4. There are 11 ways to trigger an emergency in each ICR coach, 4 inside the coach (glass hammer + fire extinguisher) , 3 at each end (doors *2 plus driver communication button), 1 in the toilet

From the article on The Journal, it sounds very much as if the trouble was actually as a result of somebody intervening where something was being stolen - or at least where they thought something was being stolen. They appear to have received a broken nose for their trouble.

There is obviously a very serious passenger education (or trust) issue - several people took the trouble to ring the guards but nobody felt it worthwhile telling Irish Rail. Whether this was because they didn't know how or because they didn't feel that it was worth bothering is hard to know. But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves.

Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous comment ?

"But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves"

To be honest it does really show how much people totally choose not to make themselves aware of what to do in an emergency, despite notices being plastered all over the train.

You can equally blame Irish Rail for hiding its emergency number.

When stuck in the no win scenario like last night I highly recommend the fire extinguisher, nice and heavy to stop any advancing thug and best of all you can spray them down CO2 is very cold, or foam.

Removing the extinguisher triggers an alarm in the cab also...

Several people (not just one) rang the guards, nobody contacted anybody at Irish Rail. That's sufficient evidence for a concerned passenger.

I have never seen any emergency number posted on a train. Now, I will admit to usually being in a bit of a fog in the morning, but to my knowledge there is no Irish Rail emergency number visible from a passenger seat.

But again - they didn't contact the driver because they didn't know how to, due to not being aware of what to do.

People have no interest in knowing what to do in an emergency until they are in one themselves.