Price Hike
 

CIE seek rise in bus and train fares
12/11/2006 - 10:16:23

Ticket price hikes could be on the way for commuters.

There are reports this morning that CIE is seeking a 9% increase in fares for bus and train users.

This morning's papers claim that CIE has submitted the price increase request to the Department of Transport, which will rule on it shortly.

The company wants a 6% rise in ticket costs, and a separate 3% increase as a fuel levy.

It contends that the hikes are needed to cover its increasing fuel bill - which is understood to have risen by €10m since 2003.

It also claims that it needs the increased revenue to meet additional wage costs agreed under social partnership.

If successful CIE's request would mean an extra five euro added onto a Dublin to Cork train journey, bringing the fare up to about €64, and an extra 15 cent added onto the average Dublin bus trip.

Taken from breakingnews.ie

P11 committee, I hope you are going to go all out on this one, this deserves a huge and robust response - if anything was to galvanise you apart from the diabolical service and overcrowding then this should, its an absolute scandal and disgrace. I guarantee if anyone with some vague hint of financial background went in there, the money that could be saved would be amazing - instead of a fare hike they should send in a team from the auditor general for a year and see what they come up with

Trust me we have been gathering evidence at quite considerable expense its 110+ pages of documentation at this stage

I have a list of why IE don't deserve a increase, it has 21 items on it all of which are verifiable,

If anyone has any thoughts please let us know, post it here problem it has to be verifiable

Platform 11 are making a submission to the Minister for Transport outlining our reasons for objecting to the proposed price increase.

is it the principle or the size fo the rise thats the problem?
 

other rail systems get a guaranteed price increase every year

ok it's not 9% but surely they need something - wage increases alone are 3%

In all fairness Donal, they have to at least go some way towards earning it. Currently they don't.

so why didnt they ask for 3% for wages? B kenny was on matt cooper last night and sidestepped why they needed 9% by rabbiting on about fuel and wages. He even said they had hedged for their fuel costs before and it had saved a fortune. So why didnt they just do it again, there must be someone in a rail strategy department somewhere that has read something about an energy crisi.

I feel strongly, if the govt (laugh laugh!) send any financial team in there, they will come up with savings.

Why aren't IE using Biodiesel for all of their modern fleet at this stage anyway?!
They're big enough to get decent economies of scale and it would get them away from fluctuating oil prices.

We heard the fuel hedging argument from Myles McHugh at a local meeting. (It appeared they still hedge this) He was challenged that since the fuel prices had gone back down how could that be a reason for increase, and he said because of hedging they were still carrying the burden of the higher cost from earlier in the year. So then he was challenged that a some point they must have bought low and then then cost rose - where did the benefit from this go, there's always increases?. Unsurprisingly, no answer to that one.

I remember a nasty arguement I had about this with IE at a public meeting

Every year you ask for close to 10% increase, you well know you will get less than 5%, you return a surplus regardless so you never needed the 10%

I now have a list of 25 reasons why IE don't deserve an increase, if you look at the accounts you will find IE spent less on fuel in 2005 than in 2004 which is interesting, IE dont pay duty and this morning the cheapest petrol in Dublin was under €1 ie back to where it was having fallen 10%+ in price in the last few months. Don't forget IE signed a new deal for the DART electrical supply

The service is not up to scratch and the company is overstaffed, there is a serious staff attitude and motivation problem. Management don't seem to have a clue about what is going on out on the ground. The vast bulk of the problems are fixable in a matter of months if the will was there

Despite the claims IE is very well subsidised, 180 odd million a year from the goverment plus over 1.3 billion over the last 8 years in capital investment. Totoal operational costs in 2005 where 403 million, or 45% subsidy which is high by European standards

They'll get their 3.7 or whatever. Pity tho, cos they dont deserve it. I heard Barry Kenny on the radio and he really did come across to me as a fool.

Just calculated the prices of the annual Heuston-Tullamore ticket for the years 2003 to 2006. The increase is in the third column:

2003 €1,820.00
2004 €2,000.00 9.9%
2005 €2,180.00 9.0%
2006 €2,270.00 4.1%

That's a 24.7% increase in 4 years. How does that compare with inflation?

Annual, monthly, weekly are not controlled by the DoT

So I can be guaranteed a 9% increase next year then? :(

I wonder did Irish rail staff get benhmarking and if so are they proving that they have increased productivity/flexibility?

The issue shouldn't be a fare hike but a revenue hike to meet costs. IE should have to account for what proportions of their revenues come from fares, from non-fare income such as rents and food and advertising and from government subvention.

Fares should only rise to keep pace with an agreed % of revenues, so that if the punter is paying 6% more so is govt, so is the Eason's newsagent etc. If pay increases are part of government agreements then the govt should be sensitive to it. These reviews should be mandatory on an annual basis rather than "saving up" fare hikes which are then proposed at massive levels every 4-5 years.

Ideally the level of non-fare income should be targeted to reduce the burden on the State and the passenger not simply with rent hikes by making all IE stations commercially friendly with provision of commercial space where feasible so that stations with low traffic help pull their weight by renting office space or something else.

In Toronto, cost recovery (excluding subvention) is 80%+ which is considered extremely high.

Of course not, but if CIE provided a decent service I would. I have no issue with paying top dollar for a top quality service. Irish Rail does not even provide an adequet service on most of their rail routes. I would wager that most CIE/IE fare on every rail route across all their bus and rail services when measured about the European benchmark is overpriced in terms of actual service provision.

If we are going to put major infrastructural money into rail transport then target the investment were it'll result in the most passengers and rail transport looks like a winner. Currently this is Dublin and other cities. Once a communiting culture dependent on rail transport arises from this, then all future investment in rail is safeguarded. Bringing this somewhat back on topic would be upgrading Pearse/GCD and forgetting about reopening Ardrahan.

Half the reason we have still have economists in this country arguing for roads over rail spending is because they know loads of it will be wasted on politicans in rural Ireland and their re-election campaigns and well as the massive workforce within IE who are surplus to requirements.

I drive mostly these days as the rolling stock on the Sligo line is uncomfortable and most of the toilets are constantly broken. I'll wait until the new rolling stock arrives and I'll start using the train again. My selfish consumerist needs outweigh any guilt concerning my carbon footprint.

Back to the topic at hand, upgrade Pearse/GCD and future proof what we already have. It's not rocket science.

Seriously thinking about opening a thread on the topic of the subsidisation issue.

Well, we're looking at a fares increase, there's a very interesting post in the Newbridge thread which could debunk the fuel price rationale for it, I suppose (though this theroy is being plucked from my ass admittadly) that whatever Partnership pay rises flow through IE have to be paid for by a fares increase in reality.

Irish Rail are not accountable for the service so no matter how bad it gets there is no comeback

Well despite IE's best efforts to prevent someone seeing it the Department of Transport are complict in this as well
Irish Rail recieve a 45% subsidy so its not that they are underfunded

It's important this is highlighted. The fact that there are dozens of former railfreight staff sitting in unused railfreight depots around the country collecting their partnership pay raises for drinking tea all day should be a nation scandal. CIE management are passing the cost of their failed legacy onto their passengers as usual.

My apology for being sensationally off topic as usual, but I am off now and it won't happen again I promise.

If only i could edit and merge threads........................

Paul, where are you?

I think thats more to do with Irish public sector unions than IE.

Perception
 

I don't remember any previous suggested prices hikes attracting this much negativity..there has been a lot of letters into the likes of Metro etc.
While many of the letters talk about the need for service improvements to match price increases, I also think people are generally becoming more frustrated, especially with the overcrowding.
I also think that IE held off on the promised service improvements for the suburban line in the new timetable on purpose. With the exception of a possible review towards the end of 2007 re the Maynooth line and Spencer Dock, I doubt the new timetable will show any significant service improvements.
If they had published a new timetable with no real substance one week, and then sought a 9% price increase the following week, there would have been a lot of negative feedback. Instead they promise the improvements for January, so they can have their price increase approved before hand.
Sounds like they are playing an interesting game......

A considerable number of staff from the freight devision where let go at quite considerable expense over the last few years. The company is of course overstaffed by a large margin, staff are unsackable as the cost and time to get rid of a lazy useless member of staff is not worth it since the union will support there man to the death despite everyone knowing

One of the reasons why IE don't deserve a increase since the unprofitable freight section has been shutdown, so if thats not eating up several million euro

If people knew the truth about why its now January there would be even more outcry

As Derek posted we will be making representations to stop the increase or at least reduce it significantly

We have a 25 point list of why IE shouldn't get it some of the reasons are obvious, some require latteral thought but we are open to ideas. If your train is persistently late or there is some other ongoing stupid thing IE are doing let us know, how long did it take for IE to respond to a written complaint, to issue a refund etc. There is a notional set of agreed standards the time has come to pull them apart one by one

Just from my experience - the persistent underperformance of the 5:30am from Cork since the intro of the MK4 and the terrible delay to your refund from 2nd Sept (and mine 2nd Oct, still o/s); are they the kinds of incidents you're looking for?

Exactly, have the 5:30 down on the list already

The only reason I managed to get a refund was since I complained in writting and lets face it my name will set alarm bells off down in Heuston

We need more of
I sent a letter in on date x heard nothing

For what it's worth:
I get the DART from Killester to Blackrock every morning. I generally get the 9:28 (arriving 9:52). After what seemed like a ridiculous amount of delays , I started recording the times train were due to arrive at and the time they actually did. In the nearly 7 months from the start of May to date, the average daily delay has been over 5 minutes. In total, it's over 10 hours so far. Over a working year, that means I'll spend almost 20 hours standing waiting for late trains. And that's mainly counting mornings only (I only counted evenings after severe delays, as otherwise I'd forgotten the details by the next morning).

This despite the fact that after a number of e-mails of complaint last year (when I got the same train, but from Tara), I received the following reply on 11/04/05:

"I have received your recent e-mail dated 29th March, which has been passed onto me for my attention regarding delays to the 09.38 from Tara Street to Dun Laoghaire, which is the 09.00 from Howth. I apologise for the delay in replying but I wanted to speak with a particular colleague who is an expert in train movements and timetabling.

My colleague has informed me that this particular train is subject to delays if the incoming 08.32 from Drogheda is late at Howth Junction. This delays the Howth train's progress through the Junction. Also, if the 09.02 ex Maynooth is late arriving into Connolly, this delays the train yet again, as she comes into the platform that the 09.11 Howth train would use going southbound. Hence, there are several factors that combine on certain days to cause delays both minor and major to this particular service.

My colleague has informed me that this train is one of a number that is being highlighted as a timetable issue, which causes it to be delayed through no direct fault of the service itself. There is a meeting today (Monday 11th April 2005) which many of the Managers are attending and that is investigating timetable and other issues that cause conflict at certain points, thus delaying trains unnecessarily. It is hoped a solution will be reached that will minimize the delays caused to particular services as a direct result of the tightness of the timetable at critical points, such as Howth Junction, Connolly and Pearse stations."

-----

About 3 years ago, I was on a train which stopped at Blackrock, but the doors in both my and the adjoining carriage failed to open. Someone pushed the emergency button, which was ignored and the train continued to the next stop (Seapoint), where the doors finally opened. My letter was eventually responded to with the statement that IE had been unable to recreate the fault, and also that the emergency button had 'to be pressed quite hard' to have any effect. (Given that the button in question was located just level with the top of the door, if you were suffering a medical crisis you'd probably have expended too much of your energy reaching it to push it hard enough).

About 18 months ago, I read a letter in the Irish times from a mother whose daughter had experienced a similar incident.

Some time in the last three or four months, I overheard someone on the DART relating a similar experience, though I don't know when it happened.

You probably have other reports of this - I suspect it's fairly common problem.

This is excellent stuff MOH, post more if you have it

Great game here blame someone else, previously all suburban trains where managed by the same manager now there are three of them, the timetable is a utter disaster you can solve the problem really nicely if you rewrite it totally its badly laid out it can't work. I will admit that it has gotten a whole lot better in the last 18 months or so, delays have reduced noticeably it happened after two changes where made to the signalling, one of which saves trains from Howth 60+ seconds under congested conditions

I experienced the door issue myself again (April 2002 I think) it was denied by IE, the big red button doesn't open the doors it just unlocks them so you need a bit of grunt to pull them apart as far as I know, of course I was faced with a door which didn't have the emergency release, the communication cord is equally effective as it will force the driver to come down to the coach to reset it, the emergency button on the older DART's seems to reset by closing the doors

Rememeber anywhere else in Europe 5 minutes is late, but in Ireland its 10 minutes so IE sing and dance about ontime when by everyones standards they are well late note IE don't publish any useful information bar a number the weekly graphs tell a different story if you can get them, the Luas guys issue them

So the response was within the target time. Problem was not resolved and the usual it never happened. The persistent delay is not acceptable so thats another strike against IE

So 3-1 to the passenger

Hi MOH and welcome to the board.

That first response you posted makes me so angry and it is a common one used by IE. "This train is late due to the late arrival of an incoming train." I see they tarted it up for your letter. That disabled elephant they nearly hired as a CS manager must have scared the human staff so much that they learned how to pad excuses.

Now, never an explanation of why the first train was late, it is an excuse that needs an excuse that IE will not give. They are very good at blame dodging aren't they?

I was in Sweden recently and had to get a train. I was puzzled as to how I knew which one to get. There was a time table with intercity trains all spaced about 4 minutes apart on the same track. Terrified I asked a nice man who told me "The time the train arrives is written up there, your train is at 15.46".

1. Can you imagine an IE timetable being that punctual that intercity trains can share a track with the trains only a matter of minutes apart and you are guaranteed to get the correct train at the correct time.

2. Can you imagine a country like Sweden accepting "This train is late due to the late arrival of an incoming train." as an excuse?

Excuse boils down to train is late because of lateness.

Excuse - not reason. Last heard it on Monday morning, 5:30 from Cork exact driver words: "this train is delayed due to the Portlaoise train in front."

I can confirm that was the situation on the 5:30 on Monday, the 5:30 has to crawl after a slow moving convoy of stopping trains

Of course I'd love to know whats wrong with the Port Laois train

Since we're on a roll
 

A few weeks ago my sister got the 19.05 to Portarlington. When it arrived there the doors would not open, and nobody was able to get off. The ticket fella told them that they could get off at Tullamore and that a train going back up would stop at Portarlington for them. They got to Tullamore, waited for the next one, got on that only to find out that it was a non-stop train to Dublin. They made a 'special stop' in Newbridge for the Portarlington crowd. The next train back to Portarlington was 40 minutes so a few of them shared a taxi home, which IE refused to pay for as well. And they want to charge people extra for this type of thing!

- scrapes jaw off the floor -
They should be refunded their ticket and the taxi fare, they need to mount a serious complaints campaign. (If they were able to open the doors at Tullamore, why didn't the train wait at Port until they fixed the problem?)

A neighbour of mine last year got stuck behind the catering trolley when trying to move up to get off in Port, the doors closed and she was brough to Tullamore, IE paid for her taxi and that's not half as bad an incident.

She's not a regular commuter and doesn't share the same hatred I do! I would have made it my mission to get the taxi fare, a refund, and a serious explanation as to why it happened in the first place!

I'm not surprised, some of my friends who commute all the time aren't bothered with chasing refunds either - the process is time consuming, rather than just getting it on the spot at the station you're at when you get off.

This is classic material folks keep it coming

In the event of the doors not opening and having tried at least 2 doors, go ahead and pull the communications cord, make sure the train is actually stopped where its meant to first

I have it in writting from IE that you are fully entitled to pull the communications cord where the doors have failed to open correctly. Have no fear of breaking the glass above the door and full the lever down to force the door

portarlington_user get your sister to write to IE, actually Steve Murphy the manager not asking but demanding a full refund of your ticket (after all they where delayed by way over a hour) and full refund of the taxi, in cash. Failing that threaten to file in the small claims court its only €15, I'm sure the taxi and fares come to a lot more not to mention to file a complaint with the Railway Safety Commission, those doors have a long history of trouble

Thanks Mark, I'll pass this info on to her and get her to write about it

Your sister probably doesn't want to hear this but:
(1) The 2035 train from Portarlington which goes 20 minutes after the train that she took back from Tullamore, STOPS in PORTARLINGTON.
(2) Irish rail frequently taxis people from Tullamore to Clara etc. when trains aren't going to stop there for whatever reason.
(3) The guys in Tullamore are probably among the most passenger focussed in the country. I am surprised that they didn't pull out the stops and taxi people the 20 minutes to Port, but I'd imagine that since the 1905 Heuston-Galway crosses the Galway-Dublin 1800 at Tullamore they probably jumped from one train to the other.