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What does this mean? It seems badly worded at best.
I presume the below means tickets are non-transferrable. how would you get a ticket in the first place though?
And "Obtain" is a verb used by myself and others to describe getting something without buying it in a shop yet without disclosing how one would get it. ------------------------- 8. (1) Subject to paragraph (3) of this Bye-Law, no person shall, with intent that any person shall use the same for the purpose of travelling or conveyance upon the railway— ( a ) sell or buy or attempt to sell or buy any ticket; --------------- Paragraph 3 is here ------------------- 3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall— (1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or (2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein. The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority. |
Its the non transfer clause, authorised person is quite different
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But it says "he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket ".
So if you buy a ticket from someone else, would it not be a straightforward defence that they bought the ticket on your behalf? Thought the "unmanned manned station" comment raised a valid point, what's the definition of manned? Which of these would count as an "unstaffed booking office"? - If the station is open, but the bloke's gone off for a cup of tea/call of nature/nap/gaming session, and there's a sign up; - If he's gone off for a while but hasn't put the sign up; - If he's stepped out of view for 30 seconds while you happen to arrive; - If he's bent down below the counter level tying his lace; - If he is actually there but is on the phone and refusing to serve anyone. I've definitely been in stations which were "open" but where there was no-one behind the counter, but there was no sign up, but since I'm on an annual ticketI'd never be hanging around waiting for the guy. |
Am I right in thinking that anyone who uses the lift from the northbound platform in Portmarnock to get over to the southbound platform can be pursued for fare evasion, based on the statue book?
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Since Portmarnock is a open station as in no barriers you haven't broken the rule concerning entry to the platform without valid ticket
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Just a quick update. I received an email from Joan Burton in reference to my situation. She has gotten in contact with Cal Carmichael on my behalf and his response was as non-committal and vague as Mr. Byrne's. The basic gist is this, everyone must understand Iarnoid Eireann's need for Revenue protection yadda yadda yadda. His closing statement was that in certain cases an individual must pursue their cause as far as the courts where their case and circumstances can be judged on their merits. If this is the case it would seem Mr.Byrne's position is redundant, and therefore so is he.
So essentially it would seem neither Mr.Byrne or Mr.Carmichael have any intention of reducing or quashing any fines that are issued, they leave it to go to court where it can be judged. Surely they must have procedures in place whereby they can affect the change or dismissal of a penalty issued by one of their staff, but I guess customer satisfaction is very low on their list of priorities. In this situation where the public is strangled by a state run organisation with omnipotence in their field ( rail travel) and a vampiric lust for profits, the customer will always be a very lowly priority, afterall it is a captive market. |
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That's great, cause we all know the courts have nothing to do these days other than sit around and deal with fare evasion cases. Typical IE to avoid doing anything to resolve the issue, which might involve a bit of work, when they can leave it up to the overloaded courts |
More letters in yesterdays and todays metro - 2 people getting stuck with the 50 euro fine today. One of the letter writers was let off the fine after the Pearse staff phoned their local station where it was confirmed they had been let through without a ticket; the other letter writer boarded a train when it arrived after they had been unsuccessfully queuing for a ticket for 15 minutes in coolmine.
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Pattern here is people without tickets are getting done, those who have a legitimate case i.e. unstaffed or where permitted to board (as is allowed in law) by a member of staff have not been fined
As of today we are aware of ZERO people who got fined despite being legally permitted to travel without a ticket and trust me I have tried to get fined while still legal Coolmine has a TVM a staffed office and the office in the container, I'd love to know why so many people are still buying singles and returns, its always confused me why there was a massive queue at 5:45pm in Pearse for tickets. There are 3 day tickets, 7 day and monthly and so on, you can buy your ticket the day before. |
Singles
Mark,
People buy singles because they make single journeys. If you take the train 2 or 3 seperate days in a week you can't benefit from the 3 days tickets or the 7 day ones. Bring back the 10 journey ticket. Bring in an oyster-equivalent. Using these would reduce queueing time significantly. Before I got my annual ticket (which still only makes sense with the tax relief) I used to buy my return every morning because I only used the train *some* days a week. Buying a weekly ticket went against the grain (and cost more) if I knew I was unlikely to use it both directions every day. I didn't know you could buy your ticket the day before travelling - does that work on the TVMs ? How many people know of this ability ? The case in Metro was very close to someone who was allowed travel without a ticket getting a fine. They only didn't get the fine because Pearse rang their origin station. If Pearse didn't have time/couldn't be bothered/wasn't their job/etc . . . then the person would have got a fine despite apparently being allowed travel from their origin without a ticket. z |
I'd agree with that. Commuter tickets in Dublin are just for that: people who travel medium-distance, fixed routes every weekday without deviation. If you travel short distances or want to change mode, the ticket won't cover you. There's also the silly insistance (from DB and IR) that monthly tickets should run for calendar months.
I travel from Stephens Green to Sandyford every day and a weekly ticket saves me less than 3 euro. When I lived in LA, a monthly bus+rail ticket was 40 dollars (after a discount from my employers) and was available everywhere. Any bus, any train, any time in an area much larger than GDA. You can't even buy that (DB, Dart, Luas) ticket in Dublin and even if you could it would be extortionate. |
Why were 10 journey tickets binned? I remember when they were taken of Dublin Bus, they were so handy for infrequent travellers - like a primitive smart card.
Is it because they reckon people will get 10+ out of them wherever they don't get checked? I've saved on the odd 2easy DB ticket when the machine's broken. |
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Yes but you have entered a lift, which seems to be against the byelaws as you are being carried.... |
Max time to buy ticket according to customer charter
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Either IE pay lip service to their customer charter or else delete it and piss on their honest customers. The person who was waiting > 15 mins also showed their ticket upside down to the inspector at pearse for the next week and wasn't checked. Mockery I tells ya |
Sorry to dig up an old thread but it is quite and interesting one.
The funny thing is, if the "fly trap" actually pointed out it was a desk for the standard fair, people wouldn't be queuing at it. I (like many others) always assumed it was a last chance thing. To me (no legal training) it seems like entrapment. I know the rules (from here) but if I didn't and thought I could legally get a ticket at Connolly if I was running late, that's what I'd do. Does Andy still post here, did he pay the fine? Quote:
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Its not a fly trap, nor is it entrappment, no ticket you get a fine unless that station you boarded was unstaffed
The booth has the full capabilty of a booking office, it has a ticket issuing machine, boxes of tickets etc. Its primary purpose is to ensure everyone passing the turnstiles has a ticket to get out, by virtue of that function it does of course collect a lot of fare evaders The Broombridge line doesn't always work since staff are posted from time to time to Broombridge for that very reason Fare revenue is up significantly more than the number of extra passengers since the booth arrived which tells you a story To this day not one single report of a fine being issued to a passenger who boarded at an unstaffed station |
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No one has contacted us yet, plently of the yes I had no ticket and was in a hurry and the queue was too long.....
If you do get stopped at the booth and are legally clean as the station was closed and the clerk does his/her best shiftless IE on you insist on the station manger being called, I've never had a problem IE have a legal right to stop you and demand you produce a ticket |
I have limited if any sympathy for people who could (including could but for circumstances entirely within their control) buy the ticket they wanted and didn't and got fined.
I have occasionally travelled legally without a ticket and not had the opportunity to purchase one because nobody was on the train or at the destination to collect the fare. My fiancée has boarded at Sandymount early on Sunday mornings when the station was closed and the TVMs (inexplicably) shuttered, and had no problems paying her fare at Connolly. The problem I can see happening is if someone arrives at a station where there is only a TVM and not an attended office and wants to get a ticket which that machine doesn't supply (e.g. a Faircard return from Sandymount to Galway). Since there is some kind of ticket that the person could buy (e.g. a single to Connolly), it looks like they are disadvantaged and there is no legal right to buy a ticket en route or at the destination in that case. |
Ah Mark, as usual you are only seeing things in black and white.
IE are full of inconsistencies. People are often told to pay at the other end. There is a desk saying "Purchase your ticket here (or whatever it says). People have misunderstood this. People are being caught out by this. If people knew what it meant, they would purchase their tickets first. I feel IE are being misleading with this and I am a passenger. Everyone here knows you need a ticket to board. With the fly trap people have assumed (and rightly so by IE standards) that the purpose of this desk is to pay for a ticket that you didn't pay for before hand. This is where they are getting caught. If IE had consistency in their methods, a large amount of people wouldn't do things like this. Remember, not all of us have the time to learn each rule and regulation of the railway. IE should make this clear to the public. That is something they have never done. As a committee member of a passenger rights group, I would expect you to be more supportive of the passengers instead of black and white, left or right, one or zero. |
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And like Paul said, he did have every intention of paying so when we saw a stand saying 'buy your ticket here', he went to it, not imaging he was walking into a trap. |
Since they moved the ticket machines in Blackrock to outside the station, I've seen people inside when the desk is unmanned looking around trying to work out where they're supposed to buy a ticket. Think they've put a sign up somewhere now explaining they're outside.
Bit stupid though if you arrive to buy your ticket, find the desk is closed, you then have to backtrack to find the TVM. |
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Interesting one at Edgeworthstown last week. Man arrived at the station late. Ticket office open but unstaffed(no machine), as the station master doubles as a flag man and other things and was off up the platform. Doors start beeping, so man jumps on. Luckily there was a ticket inspector on the train after Mullingar and he was allowed buy a ticket. I wonder would what reception he would have got at Connolly if he arrived without a ticket.
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That was totally legal, booking office unstaffed
Rule has a special condition for this where the member of staff who issues tickets needs to assist in the trains departure (s)he can authorise you to board with no ticket as to not delay the trains departure. Again you don't need to know this. In fact applying nothing more than common sense will see you safely through the system If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity There is nothing complex or confusing about the state of play, it is the same across most of world and is a perfectly logical state of affairs. While there is no doubt that Irish Rail have been far from perfect, there have been serious increases in the number of TVM's starting from zero to almost every suburban station having at least one, a significant number are available outside the opening hours of the station The booth in Connolly is postered with large signs clearly indicating fines will be issued. The law allows the member of staff to either issue the normal ticket or a fine depending on the situation. I have been through the booth in Connolly at least 3 times ticketless, even arriving in from broombridge, never a problem. This is the scenario which concerns us |
The likes of Clonsilla is a joke. The stations shuts up shop at whatever, 1800 and the TVMs are of course, locked inside. The stupid stupid thing is that there is a signal cabin directly overlooking the station (indeed, in years gone by the signalman was also the station master!) so they could easily leave this one open so as to allow access to the TVMs as I really don't think all my €2 fares over the years paid at the barrier in Tara have gone into IE's bank account, if you know what I mean.
Anyway-why can't they get rid of those clowns at Tara/Connolly and have TVMs set up in 'reverse' mode so you select the station you came from and buy the ticket before exiting the station. At leats that way we'd know the dosh was actually not buying pints at the end of shift (though I'm sure that doesn't ever happen for legal reasons). |
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He walked onto the platform, walked into the ticket office, could see no one at the counter and so walked back onto the platform. The doors then started beeping. At this stage he didn't know a: if there was someone in the ticket office, but not at the window for the five seconds he was at it. b: if he could legally board the train c: if he could pay on the train By the time we reached Mullingar, I had already decided that if we reached Connolly without a ticket checker, I would hold back at the ticket desk to make sure he didn't get fined. The gentleman looked very anxious when he boarded the train and very relieved when the ticket checker sold him a ticket. I find it very worrying the Irish Rail stick no ticket no travel posters the length and breadth of the network, only for people to find out that they don't really mean it at certain stations under certain circumstances and at certain times of the day. |
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The ticket machine in the booking office as Castleknock was out of order a couple of mornings last week. The guy behind the counter instructed people to use the single TVM. Obviously 1 TVM doesn't have the capacity to deal with the passenger numbers at Castleknock in the morning.
Train turns up, everyone leaves the queue and gets on train. Were they right to do this? What other option did they have? What happens if you turn up at the other end to the new automated barriers with no ticket, and an unmaned ticket office? |
If the booking office was open, you should buy a ticket unless instructed otherwise, you can take up the queue with IE as a failure to meet the charter (and MOU) requirements
Curiously there is no formal obligation on you to use a TVM, as I have pointed out several times C(IE) have had ticket vending machines since the early 1980's (there only left but out of use) thus the bye laws where written after there introduction so the lack of a mention of a ticket vending machine in the rules is curious |
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Do a quick survey of the commuting public. Ask them do they know this rule. Then ask them have they ever bought a ticket at their destination. Then ask them if they believe this is acceptable. |
Cullen was asked about the possability of introducing a congestion charge in the capital but responded that the public transport resources were not in place.
The only reason I am saying is because in enforcing these rules there needed to be resouces put in place to facilitate. What happened at Castleknock was not right. This station has normal resources of a ticket office and 2 tvms. I have used it at times and the queues for it can be enormous. The fact that it was down to 1 TVM and people were still required to queue to get tickets goes to show how much a joke this rule is. In putting the exit validation in place it was obvious that while DART stations were upgraded, stations on the Maynooth line are a joke. It is not just Castleknock, look at Coolmine, there were queues for the temp. station out the gate and around by the new bridge the other morning, Clonsilla and Ashtown can be as bad. 1 or 2 tvms (not always working), stations not always open and only 3 turnstiles to validate tickets is not enough! If they are expecting major passenger numbers for these stations they need to facilitate them! |
There's actually only one TVM at Castleknock (ridiculous, but thats another point). When I said the ticket machine was broke, I meant the one in the ticket offfice. The guy behind the counter was unable to issue tickets.
From what Mark has said, people who left the TVM queue and got on the train were entitled to do so. (i think?) :confused: |
We are not aware of anyone who has tried to the TVM not in the rules line.
The booking office was unable to sell a ticket due a technical problem, you would be really unlucky to get done in court on that |
Just to clarify. Can anyone confirm that you will get done for the following
Turn up at station. Train on platform. Que at ticket machine(s) and at counter. Rather than miss the train, jump on train and try to pay at the far end. |
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