Ronald Binge: So you would like a €3billion project to go ahead without any proper evaluation? If the answer is "no" then why indulge in ad hominem attacks on McCarthy? If the answer is "yes" then this is precisely the reckless attitude to spending public money that has left us with bad or no infrastructure.

Well it certainly has left us with neither Metro nor DART Underground.

Adds: Be fascinating to stack up the cost of unbuilt rail proposals from the DRRTS onwards. How much money was spaffed on the original design phase for Metro North and West, and the cost of the box at the Mater, for example? These are sunk costs but it seems very easy to blow money on plans that can get waved around and then buried for whole decades.

if metro integrates with D-U, fine - although with D-U if you turn ther Howth branch into a shuttle you have capacity to put a DART spur into the airport.

However, we have now seen metro for what it really is - and also the way the gov thinks about these things. Metro's sole purpose is to drive house building at both ends of the route. For that the money is given. D-U isnt aimed at building houses, its aimed at releving congestion (and it has an indirect house building knock on of course) but that isnt the prime aim and so it wasnt built.

That predicted capacity of 70m trams every 3 mins better be true. This thing is going to be the driver of massive residential development from the Swords area all the way down through Ballymun and then out from Sandyford and beyond. Not to mention handling probably the vast majority of the airport traffic.

The anti-metro bias has always been founded on the grounds that the Metro doesn't have any passengers today. Irish Rail has 45 million and the situation isn't great for them right now.

Metro will increase pressure on the rail network. Fix the problems before expanding

We have spent close to 100 million on the planning for Metro North, West, DU, KRP2, Airport DART as well as some property acquisition.

Well you can throw in the entire Red Luas, that was the 'cheap' alternative to bringing the DART to Tallaght and Clondalkin

Mark, you could also throw in the new cross-city LUAS, which in many respects a cheapo substitute to Metro North most of the way to Finglas, and which may be "stranded" if the Metro North-South goes ahead. What a circus.

Thats exactly it stop gap short term thinking

I can't argue with that.

I totally agree that urgent action is needed to fix Irish Rail, but instead the government has been doing its best to drive them out of business. Realistically, the financial and management situation at Irish Rail needs to be stabalised before we can even talk about major investment projects like DART Underground. That means either restoring and probably improving the government subvention, or very hefty fare increases and probably closing all but the most essential lines. I suspect most here would favour the former.

I think the question of DART/Metro isn't so much a question of which is better, but what's the right order to do it in. Without DART Underground, both are less capable, have more awkward connections and longer journey times, and as a result many people will not make the switch from their cars. DART Underground is needed. Transport 21 had DU and Metro north being built in parallel, which meant it was both solving the problems of existing users and adding new users through new lines and electrification of existing ones.

But when you look at the best way to connect the airport to the city centre, I would like to see both projects evaluated on their merits. I think there would be a strong case for eventually having both DART and Metro connected to the airport, and the most forward thinking approach would be to build a 4-platform underground station for whichever gets there first, to leave spare platforms for the other to be added later.

The fact that DAA only look at rail connections in terms of lost parking revenue doesn't help.

IE have hit the upper limit of fares, which is why there are so many on-line discounted options, andy further upward trands will be counter productive.

Closing lines - there are some low hanging fruit but actually Limerick-Ballybrophy could be made a lot better with a bit of re-organisation, as could Limierick Junction/Waterford. They do seem to exist to be sacrificed if the heat gets too intense though.

Subvention is the thing, it is the only thing. the UK experiance has shown that if you want rail to excercise at its best, you need state support for it. The benefits may be difficult to record, but they are there.

What is curious is there is no shortage of passengers

Morning and evening peak are wedged to the extent that its time to increase the online fares or significantly reduce the number of seats available for online sales.

Which unpopular something will have to be done with the free travel scheme, as you can now have a full to standing train but still loose money on it. Being rather conservative Irish Rail is short 7 million, but the reality its closer to 14 million from the FTP scheme. Thats a massive chunk of cash.

That would sort the deficit out as well as open up options for later evening services which in turn could take pressure off the evening peak hour

The obvious solution to the paradox of overcrowding and low revenue is to limit the FTP scheme to off-peak travel. In practice this would identify a limited number of trains ineligible for FTP. There used to be a limitation of this sort on Dublin Bus, but the late Seamus Brennan was regarded as some sort of hero when he got rid of it.

With a minority Government and a useless minister for transport I can't see any such move happening (cue outrage and wailing on Joe Duffy). There is also the little problem of enforcement, and given the slack culture of revenue protection on Irish Rail that is a very real problem.

The current Goverment couldn't possibly even consider it. Its a move that would be far to costly. However, they should reform the system in terms of eligibility. Its stricter now but not good enough.

There is an increasing trend of seat reservations for FTP holders which I guess is a positive thing and will continue.

Your right Irish Rail's revenue protection is also not good enough in terms of policing it. Yes they do checks however you can roll up in Heuston or any station and purchase two free tickets and there is no evidence a second person is even traveling.

There is also this "flash the pass" mentality and staff are not really checking it for dates etc. Its unbelievable how brazen some people are and right under the nose of staff who don't appear bothered.

Online booking has rapidly increased since the new system and you have significant amounts of students and people from commuter towns booking.

I don't think IE should change the online fare structure because it won't solve anything just damage them to much.

A working reservation system is the way to go, while improved its far from prefect.

more comments on lack of underground in 2040

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Sorry mate, won't happen again, worth mentioning the new stops in Cabra, Glasnevin and the Docklands

Additionally Metro North preferred route is here

http://www.metrolink.ie/#/map

You could almost do cut and fill along the ballymun road and swords bypass with that alignment

I presume they are planning to cut and cover in Swords. The route there certainly seems designed to keep costs down rather than be of use to commuters or businesses in the town.

So it looks like the Charliemont Metro station is sub-surface, and the connection to the Green line is between Darthmouth Road and Northbrook Road. That gives about 80m to get from tunnel mouth to elevated level. Is that possible?

Also, I wonder how deep the tunnel needs to go under the canal, and how deep the Charlemont station needs to be. I would assume stations on a steep incline aren't permitted.

I see it's now going to be on the East side of Sephen's green. I guess another Green line connection isn't important, but it also could be problematic for an integrated Stephen's Green Station if DART Underground does ever get resurrected.

The one change from Metro North I'm in fovour of is the moving of the Maynooth Line interchange to Whitworth. This creates the possibility of connecting to both surface rail lines.

But I think connecting to the Green line is a mistake. It will create all kinds of operational problems in the long run, and keep the whole line from running at full capacity.

I also think building the underground stations with 60m platforms is rediculously short sighted. You can't just tack on an extra 20m to the platforms the way you can with surface platforms. They need to allow for future expansion from the start and build the platforms at least 100m long.

Just had a look at the engineering drawings

seems to be elevated!

Engineering drawings suggest its ok

Crossrail in London are 200m

It seems like the NTA are all ready trying to forget about the dart expansion as all they mention are 3 new stations.
Irish rail need more trains and they just need to get on an order the trains. Once/if the lines are eletrified then that would free up lots of DMU trains