Do you know where I could find his mailing address?

http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/whoswho.php#IE

Cal Carmichael
General Manager Northern and Eastern
Iarnród Éireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

Do you think contacting Mr. Carmichael and voicing my disappointment with the manner in which Mr. Byrne has handled this situation (attaching a full transcript of our correspondences) could have any effect???

Unlikely but Mr Carmichael reports the CEO and is responsible for all matters excluding infrastructure which happens on his patch, which includes the Sligo line

The early train is his problem as is Mr Byrne who reports to the three General Managers (N&E, S&W and DART)

I have just arrived for a train to town at coolmine coming from the coolmine side. The gates went down so i went to open the gate on the city bound platform side. And it was locked. I have an annual ticket so in my opinion i should not be made walk to the ticket office side. So i waited for seven to eight minutes as both a connolly and longford train was passing. I went to the ticket office and was told that the gate only opens between seven and nine. I was not in a hurry so did not mind waiting the extra ten or so minutes but if it was twenty past one and that happened and as a result of that i had to wait an hour for the next train i would have gone mad. It really is a disgrace and discriminates against those coming from the coolmine side.

A letter in todays metro outlines another story of a D15 commuter who got fined whilst getting on the train in Ashtown. Same kinda story, running for the train coming from the new apts there and offered to pay for a ticket in Pearse.

Surely it is time for IE to put TVM's on the Dublin bound platforms in Clonsilla and Ashtown.

They are on the Dublin bound platform at Clonsilla.... It's Coolmine where they are not.

Yep sorry meant Coolmine.

I read that particular letter, once again the misconception that you can pay at your destination has been the cause for this issue. In the letter the woman mentioned how the inspector took all her details under the guise of sending her a bill for her 2 euro ticket, then when he had all her information proceeded to issue her fine. Its ridiculous that this unscrupulous behaviour can be accepted from IE staff.

clarification - with solicitor hat on
 

1. If you are late - you're late. Get the next train.

2. The SI is quite explicit - when the booking office is closed you may pay on the train (if there is a conductor/ticket checker) or pay at destination.

3. Only since the arrivals of TVM's at certain stations have we seen the introduction of the Venus Fly Traps in City Centre

4. If i have to spell it out for you - you are too stupid to get a train in the first place.

1. What if you arrive at Connolly at 23:15 and the ticket office's closed?
I'ts a looong wait til the next train.

2. What is a booking office? If you can't book seats to intercity stations (Arklow) I'm pretty sure you can't book tickets on commuter services.

4. Hamiltonian mathematics are difficult. Look this up on wikipedia.

You may board the train without a ticket if the booking office is closed, you must then pay on the train or at destination. If there is no one to collect your fare the SI does not require you to pay later. Its IE's obligation to collect the fare

Any staffed office at a station which sells tickets

Why not, and this may be so crazy it just might work, call it a ticket office?

A good few letters into the Metro this morning about the charging of fines.

While the rules are clear, IE have clearly operated a policy over the years where it was acceptable to buy your ticket upon arrival. They have now changed that policy without warning, and proceeded to issue fines in a way that for many crimes would be considered "entrapment".

Letter in one of the freesheets today making a case that the data obtained by IE from you in pretence of giving you an invoice and subsequently fining you is in breach of the data protection act fair dealing regulations....

I'm not sure of this argument, are IE only selling you a "standard fare" ticket.

On the other hand if they took any more data than was strictly necessary to issue the ticket (name and address) they would be in breach of the data protection act regulations.

Legally they have a right to take your name and address

Common sense tells you to pay before you travel, there have been and continue to be heaps of posters at stations and on trains telling you to have a ticket. It has become easier to issue a standard fare following recent legal changes in the rail safety act

We have discussed several cases to death here, but both where fully legitimate collars

You where on a train without a ticket you got done and I think a lot of people need to grow up

I think that what all this shows is that there is a difference between fare evasion and travelling without a ticket.

In each example we have read on here and in the papers, the passengers have boarded the train in good faith, fully intending to pay for their journeys. This is not enough.

Irish Rail have been advertising that failure to show a valid ticket will result in a penalty fare. Even if someone has a ticket but fails to show it, if for example they have left it at home and can prove that they own one, they will still be fined.

This is coinciding with the introduction of the new ticket barriers, which are ridiculously easy to follow someone through without a ticket. The only consequence seems to be the sound of a steam train's horn.

Therefore, the sensible thing to do when you find yourself without a ticket in good faith is to squeeze through the barrier behind the person in front of you. In the event that you are caught, you will have to pay the fine. But there is also the much greater likelihood that you will be allowed away scott free. Either way; you are no worse off than if you queue up like a lamb to the slaughter to receive your fine.

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—
(a) pay, to the officer or employee—
(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway



But this is what has happened until now. IE changed their application of the law.
IE are only going to catch honest people at connolly anyone with a clue will say they got on in broom bridge.
Mark you've pointed out inconsistencies in what the IE posters say and what is the law,

You've seen BigNelly's post on Boards.ie where he claims he was allowed pay at the destination in Pearse in November.

IE's website claims the "booking" office at Rush and Lusk station has certain opening hours, I've regularly seen the office closed during these hours.

IE want to cop th e**** on and have a single consistent customer focused regard for their passengers.
If they are going to spout sh1te with regard to no ticket no travel then make sure every station is staffed for the entire time trains service that station.

They should also make sure their trains run. on time.
They should also after closing the line at weekends for more than a year to make stations accessible make sure they maintain the lifts.

they should also, after erecting a sign to point to the exit of a station, open the goddamn exit during the hours the newly erected sign says.

They should also consider posting notices of altered timetables outside locked station buildings so their customers can know why there is no train to get them into work until ten am.
They should also, if they alter the timetables, actually run the service they advertise in their alteration notice.

They should make it easy to for intending passengers to buy a ticket and not make them jump through hoops or take them a million miles out of their way to do so.

they should also punish people who intend to not pay for their journey.

They should at the very least employ managers to manage the company who can do so.

If it is a weekly/monthly/annual ticket you have 14 days to produce it and the fine will be struck out. And they will know if it was issued before you got caught

We have heard of not one case where a passenger was fined incorrectly, i.e. boarded unstaffed station and fined, thats where action can be taken. It is your responsibility to arrive in good time to buy a ticket

Travelling without a ticket is permitted under specific conditions, fare evasion is where you board without a ticket outside those conditions

Now we can argue all day about the queue at the booking office and the stupid TVM's but staffed station board no ticket, fine you got done no comeback.

IE have had the right to issue standard fares for decades that has not changed, the amount they can charge has, what did change was cases in the courts started to get thrown out on the basis of pay at the other end. So the posters started to appear in 2004 actually

The rules are simple, extremely simple

If you can purchase a ticket at the station you board at you must, failing to do so may result in a fine

I was wondering yesterday, what's to stop people from getting on a train at say broombridge where there is no ticket office, and then simply getting off the train at any stop between there and longford without a ticket? there is no validation when exiting any of the ticket stations.... that would of sourse fall into the area of fare evasion, no question, and as IE are working so hard to crackdown on that, then why don't they inforce it in the 13 stations between broombridge and longford?

You are legally obliged to purchase a ticket either on the train or at destination, now if IE don't have someone at the far end or on the train well you go for free

The fly trap as Tom has named it is the busiest flow of passengers in the country so one guy at the booth is very efficient. He will sell you a ticket if you board in Broombridge. I've been through twice without ticket having boarded at a unstaffed station and had no problems getting a ticket and getting through.

It would be be in the passenger interest to have a roaming team out on trains that has the side effect of dealing with anti social behaviour. There is a team out, but they tend to stake out stations randomly at peak hours

Did you not say you don't have to buy at a tvm? if the office's closed?
(In some other thread. maybe on boards.ie)

If I'm mistaken and it is as simple as the single sentence above, it's just more proof of IE's useless attitude to customers.

I say lock this thread. unless andyl gets more news.

If you can purchase a ticket....

We know the rules don't mention the vending machine but its a weak defence if all you wanted was a single or return. If you wanted a student monthly or a ticket to Cork from Clonsilla well you can't purchase that ticket. If the TVM can issue the ticket you want use it.

I've outlined the simplest possible and sensible approach to having a ticket. The issue at hand here is not the rules, which by all accounts are perfectly reasonable, they are common sense. The issue is the hit and miss application of the standard fare combined with a long history of lax enforcement.

We await the day when passenger is refused a ticket on train or destination and is fined despite having boarded under the unstaffed booking office clause

I told ye to lock the thread ;)

if you look at the luas, ticket machine on every platform, don't get on without a ticket. simple.

IE say don't get on without a ticket. end of.
unless you can't get a ticket but we won't tell you that. and we'll be aggressive and surly and if a train breaks down we won't tell you how to get a refund and if you email us it'll go to the great email in the sky and you muct obey our terms and conditions and we say we'll obey ours but we won't and dammit IE annoy me.

Do they still have the "back in 5 mins" sign in the window at Lasndowne Road? I know at one stage that sign was almost always up if I arrived any time outside rush hour.

No, they don't have that. What they do have is a member of staff watching TV and the ticket barrier nearest to the ticket office constantly open with red Xs. I have sauntered through as I have my weekly ticket. No request to see the ticket. In fact, he doesn't even look up from his telly!

unmanned manned stations
 

It seems (based on limited observation) that even stations which are nominally manned are often unmanned from a practical point of view.

Clontarf Road in particular seems to be manned by phone addicts who have an affliction which causes their feet to stick to desktops. On a number of occasions I have seen people attempting to buy tickets from the *ticket desk* only to be waved off towards the machines with the hand that is not holding the telephone while the conversation continues without regard to the customer. I know of course that some of these calls could be important operational calls, but given how often these guys are on the phone there must be a lot of them that aren't operational.

I was passing through last week some time and there were a load of people (maybe 10 or so) stuck on the platform side because one person had a ticket for City Centre and the gates wouldn't let him through, someone else was trying and failing to get through with a buggy and there was some other problem with the 3rd gate. It took a what looked like a long time for the guy behind the counter to realise there was a backlog and come out to open the gates.

z

seriously, if they trick you into giving your details or if you have a legitimate expectation that you can pay at the destination, regardless of the written rules, you might have a case. talk to a solicitor if you care that much. but seriously, from a pragmatic point of view, if they go all high and mighty, pay the fine and generate negative publicity. best approach every time. there is no point fighting it because of all the hassle. hell, it would probably cost you €50 to win in terms of train and luas tickets to and from court as well as your time off work.

I would point out if you are asked for your details on the grounds that they are of the opinion that you may have broken a byelaw, and no ticket is a reasonable opinion you have to give them or else you have committed an offence.

Clearly if they refuse your money for the normal fare they are trying to issue the fine

They have no case if you boarded at an unstaffed station, if that is the case and they continue to attempt to issue the fine

1. Take names (they will refuse thats fine see point 3)
2. Tell them they have broken the law by refusing to issue a ticket under SI 109 1984
3. Get the gardai involved

but if they ask for your name for a stated or reasonably presumed purpose and then they use it for another (i.e. to issue a fine), you should be able to stop them. while they are able to ask for your name, you can refuse. sure, they may get mighty pissed off; they could probably even get you arrested, but using your name for a purpose you didn't reasonably expect when you gave it is just as much of an offence as not paying your way.

I don't have a ticket and this IE official wants my name and address its not as if they are looking for your details so as to send you a birthday card

Even in the rudest possible way it goes like this

Do you have ticket?
No
Where did you board?
X
I will need to take your name and address

The actual question is must IE serve you with the standard fare notice at the point of detection or can they send it later

The fine for false details is up to €1000

Its all academic really since we have heard of no one issued with a fine who had boarded under the unstaffed booking office provision.

So,

If i happen to get no ticket at my depature station, say its Mullingar and arrive in Connolly and Q at the desk that says 'no ticket q here' and tell them i boarded say at broombridge, regardless of where i boarded i should be ok?

Come back later that day get a ticket to my destination, one way if available and everything is rossie?

Sounds great!

I have one other question, well 2 really, 1) why is there no one way fare from outside maynooth, eg edgeworthstown to connolly, and 2) why does the fare cost 25.50 return on a friday versus 17.50 any other day? Iknow they are two differant tickets, one is a month return and one is day return, but they will not issue a day return ticket on a friday in edge!:confused:

Regards
Sean

We can't condone fare evasion, if the ticket office in Mullingar was closed you have nothing to fear by asking for Mullingar Dublin either single or return, few Mullingar Dublin services call in Broombridge which means you will be caught out

There is a one way fare, there always is but if it is more than the return well the staff have little choice but to issue the return. Day returns are never available on Friday or Sunday on intercity routes

Why not?

1. There is no obligation to offer them at all
2. No shortage of punters to pay full fare on Friday

I spotted this at a suburban station in Birmingham yesterday - a list of names and addresses (of the type St. Patrick Street, Wolverhampton rather than precise details, but enough to satisfy the libel law fear!) of those convicted of evasion (amounts given too). Very striking.

Great reason to get a weekender ID ;)

Yes but be careful, there are many occassions that a adult return is less than the weekender card fare!!

I am now in the habit of asking for my ticket and adding 'Or whatever is the cheapest fare, please' as I was told to do after a complaint years ago when myself and my partner were charged different prices for the one journey on the one day.